(HKR-03-06-25) On a recent episode of Hard Knock Radio, host Davey D sat down with award-winning journalist and author Sonali Kolhatkar to discuss her latest book, Talking About Abolition: A Police-Free World is Possible. The conversation explored the growing discourse around abolition, the role of police in maintaining racial capitalism, the challenges of media narratives, and the need for cultural shifts to reimagine public safety.
Challenging “Copaganda” and Media Narratives
Kolhatkar and Davey D opened the discussion by examining how mainstream media reinforces pro-policing narratives, often referred to as “copaganda.” Davey D pointed to a recent speech by Donald Trump, where a 13-year-old Black cancer survivor dressed as a police officer was used to evoke sympathy for law enforcement. Kolhatkar called this a classic example of how police institutions seek to maintain legitimacy by humanizing officers rather than addressing systemic violence.
She emphasized how Hollywood plays a major role in this propaganda by portraying police officers as women, people of color, and Black individuals to deflect criticism of systemic issues. “It’s a way to confer innocence upon police,” she explained, noting how media narratives obscure the real harm policing causes marginalized communities.
The Evolution of Abolitionist Thought
Kolhatkar traced her journey into abolitionist thinking, highlighting the influence of scholars and activists such as Ruth Wilson Gilmore, Dylan Rodriguez, and Angela Davis. She recalled how, decades ago, the concept of prison abolition seemed radical, but over time, through movements like Critical Resistance, it became a core framework for justice movements.
Her book compiles interviews with 12 leading abolitionists, including Alicia Garza, Melina Abdullah, Cat Brooks, and Leah Penniman, providing a broad and intersectional perspective on abolition. She stressed that abolition is not just about eliminating police and prisons but about building alternative structures of safety and justice that prioritize community well-being.
Defund, Reform, or Abolish? The Ongoing Debate
The conversation also touched on the misinterpretation and co-optation of abolitionist demands, particularly the slogan “Defund the Police.” Davey D noted that “defund” meant shifting resources to communities, but politicians and media distorted it to spread fear. Kolhatkar agreed, saying the backlash was intentional to protect police budgets and power.
She acknowledged critiques from figures like former Black Liberation Army member Dhruba bin Wahad, who argued that “Defund the Police” lacked clarity and became a distraction. In response, Kolhatkar stressed that while language matters, so does the broader movement strategy—abolitionists must adapt messaging while staying committed to their goals.
Abolition and the Role of Judges, Courts, and Capitalism
Kolhatkar expanded the discussion beyond policing to the broader criminal justice system, particularly the role of judges and courts in perpetuating mass incarceration. She referenced the work of Yvette Ale-Ferlito, who created a Yelp-style platform to review judges, aiming to hold them accountable for their decisions that disproportionately harm Black and Brown communities.
She also underscored how policing, prisons, and capitalism are deeply interconnected, quoting Andrea Ritchie’s argument that police exist to enforce racial capitalism, not public safety. This, she argued, is why reform efforts consistently fail—because they only pour more money into law enforcement without addressing root causes like poverty and wealth inequality.
Envisioning a Police-Free World
Perhaps the most crucial part of the conversation centered around the imagination needed to build a police-free society. Kolhatkar stressed that policing is a downstream response to social inequality—a band-aid on a fundamentally broken system. If the real goal is to reduce harm and violence, communities must invest in housing, healthcare, mental health support, and economic justice instead of policing.
She highlighted activists like Kat Brooks, who is working on Mental Health First Oakland, an alternative to police response for mental health crises. Similarly, Leah Penniman links abolition to food justice, arguing that restoring Black and Indigenous people’s relationship to land is key to community self-determination.
Where Does the Abolitionist Movement Go from Here?
As the conversation wrapped up, Davey D asked Kolhatkar how the abolitionist movement can move forward, particularly in the face of growing backlash and political shifts. She urged listeners to remain committed to expanding the abolitionist vision, rather than being limited by electoral politics and short-term compromises.
Kolhatkar emphasized that abolition is not just about resistance—it’s about building a new world. She encouraged people to support local organizing efforts, engage in political education, and push for budgetary shifts that prioritize care over punishment.
In closing, she directed listeners to her book as a resource for deepening their understanding of abolitionist ideas and learning from the leaders who have been at the forefront of this movement.
How to Learn More
Listeners can find Sonali Kolhatkar’s book Talking About Abolition: A Police-Free World is Possible at local bookstores or on Bookshop.org. She continues to host Rising Up with Sonali, available at risingupwithsonali.com, and writes for YES! Magazine.
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